One of the most profound paragraphs I’ve read.
A quote by G.I. Gurdjieff:
‘[..]man’s chief delusion is his
conviction that he can do. All people think that they can do, all people want to do, and
the first question all people ask is what they are to do. But actually nobody does
anything and nobody can do anything. This is the first thing that must be understood.
- Everything happens
All that befalls a man, all that is done by him, all that comes from
him —
- all this happens.
And it happens in exactly the same way as rain falls as a result
of a change in the temperature in the higher regions of the atmosphere or the
surrounding clouds, as snow melts under the rays of the sun, as dust rises with the
wind.
“Man is a machine. All his deeds, actions, words, thoughts, feelings, convictions,
opinions, and habits are the results of external influences, external impressions. Out of
himself a man cannot produce a single thought, a single action. Everything he says,
does, thinks, feels—all this happens. Man cannot discover anything, invent anything.
It all happens.
“To establish this fact for oneself, to understand it, to be convinced of its truth,
means getting rid of a thousand illusions about man, about his being creative and
consciously organizing his own life, and so on. There is nothing of this kind.
Everything happens—popular movements, wars, revolutions, changes of government,
all this happens. And it happens in exactly the same way as everything happens in the
life of individual man. Man is born, lives, dies, builds houses, writes books, not as he
wants to, but as it happens. Everything happens. Man does not love, hate, desire—all
this happens.
“But no one will ever believe you if you tell him he can do nothing. This is the most
offensive and the most unpleasant thing you can tell people. It is particularly
unpleasant and offensive because it is the truth, and nobody wants to know the truth.
“When you understand this it will be easier for us to talk. But it is one thing to
understand with the mind and another thing to feel it with one’s “whole mass,’ to be
really convinced that it is so and never forget it.
“With this question of doing” (G. emphasized the word), “yet another thing is
connected. It always seems to people that others invariably do things wrongly, not in
the way they should be done. Everybody always thinks he could do it better. They do
not understand, and do not want to understand, that what is being done, and
particularly what
- has already been done
in one way, cannot be, and could not have
been, done in another way.‘
from: Ouspensky’s “In search of the miraculous”
Sweet
yea my thoughts
What about this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia
Does it fit into this theory?
You know what’s really depressing?
I thought to myself and was about to write, that if I have no will, and it all just happens, then I could just let everything go, become a bum or crack addict, consciously destroy my life to prove your wrong. Destroying one’s life being the easiest thing to accomplish, really.
But just after a while I realized that I won’t become a bum, crack addict and destroy my life. Why?
I simply can’t.
This would be why we have religion, would it not? People probably have that feeling deep down that they can’t do anything themselves in their life, so they search for a purpose, which is what I supposed religion ultimately offers: a sense of purpose, of direction, that your life isn’t for naught.
And… “But it is one thing to
understand with the mind and another thing to feel it with one’s “whole mass,’ to be
really convinced that it is so and never forget it.”
I think I’m only at the former, and that my body is rejecting the latter. Even though my mind seems to understand the concept laid out perfectly, my emotive self seems to refuse that it’s true. Heh… if my body was to accept this fact, I’d probably want to commit suicide… before realising even that I can’t actually DO.
Interesting quote, MM. Seems to sum up what I’ve been thinking of late. 😀
archont: yeah exactly, I was thinking of the same thing some time ago. What if you decide to not do anything, just sit and die from starvation. You won’t ever do this. Even if you do it, how do you know it was your choice, maybe you became mental. Well you probably did if you’re sitting dying of starvation in a pool of your own shit :). There is never a choice.
yv3: The question is can machines percieve qualia?
SpiltCoffee: I think this “search for purpose” is part of the mechanism. Without it people wouldnt do much. But that doesnt mean any purpose is real, it is just there for the mechanism to work. And there is no other purpose for the mechanism to work other than working itself.
lol
is this brainwashing
@archont: You answered you question while you was writing: “I simply can’t.
@Michal: Yes, eehm no :).
I would assume that Qualia is a part of an complex machine. But how could the phenomenon be described to fit the theory of men machines?, as a uniqe physical state of perception? Is there a difference between human and a thermometer for instance? Its sounds trivial, but i think it isn’t. Please think about it.
You should change your name to: MM what happens, since i guess your not really doing anything
Michal: it’s the illusion of choice. After making a decision you look back and reaize you could have done different things. You could have catched the laptop before it fell on the floor as your landlady was about to say “whoops” and burst in laughter after tripping over the cable, leaving you with expensive, yet useless junk. You could have, doesn’t mean you would have, should you be moved back in time, (along with your state of mind)
u watched to much matrix rofl?
my one and only purpose in life is to die,
and its actually the only choice i want to make:
How will i die?
Gotta drop a comment here again.
Great short article. Pretty much sums up what we talked quite a while ago, MM.
Everything in this universe is cause->reaction, coincidence/randomness doesn’t exist (now some may say that things like random number generators exist, but how could they be random? They work with input that again is generated by universal laws. Just because we can’t predict the input or it is above our head, doesn’t mean it’s random at all…). If coincidence existed, it would have to come from nothing, because it cannot come from cause->reaction (due to its nature ;)). Fact is, everything that happens is a result of what there already is. This repeating process is what we call evolution.
Sure we have free will, because we can do whatever we decide to do, but what does free will actually mean? Free will is nothing but the result of our brain computing fed with everything that we are – i.e. all experiences from the past, nature/character, genes, …)
Now, as MM said, this statement is very offensive to most people, because if true it would instantly render their lives completely useless, which, of course, is impossible. And this is where they go wrong. This assumption is plainly wrong. So what is the point of life then? The answer is: plain experience.
I am somewhat convinced that the plot of our life is “written”/set before we are born – not by some god, but simply by the nature of the universe (according to my reasoning above it is actually written from the moment this universe came into existence). All that happens, happens exactly the way it does because of what there is and therefore cannot happen otherwise. So what is the point of that struggle we call life then? Again, even if the plot is 100% clear, there is still one thing left: We have to experience it. Without going through it, experiencing it, we will and cannot change. We have to actually live, because otherwise life would merely be an idea (theory).
So I am coming back and quoting what MM said quite a while ago on this blog: “This is the universe experiencing itself.” Without experiencing itself, the universe would not progress, evolve at all. Theory is great, but without practice it’s worthless and useless. Now don’t ask me why the universe exists at all and why it evolves. I don’t know, I’d say it’s just the nature of it.
Now, I also agree with MM’s opinion: There is no real point, goal or whatever. The universe is the way it is, simply because it’s just more interesting that way. True, everything else would probably be very boring. 😉
Just my 2 cents…
Btw, archont: Such a decision (doing nothing, etc.) would not be different than any other. Again, it would be the result of what you are and all external influences on you. So nothing special… 😉
$able: Why do we actually look for cars before crossing the road? If stuff just happens looking or not looking would do absolutely no difference while crossing the road 😀 .
rfreak: Uh, because you would have a higher chance of being run over by a car if you didn’t look. If the chances were the same whether we were or weren’t looking, then obviously our brains would not be able to sense danger and avoid it. Such is the way of a living thing. It has a will to live and experience the universe (except those that are suicidal), and looking for cars before crossing the road is performed to help ensure this will for us human beings.
@SplitCoffee, rfreak: yes, plus the humans have the ability to replay and reflect “recorded” data, enyway, the message is that you cant “get out” of your brain and the physical laws so its predictied in some kind of way that you will look around before crossing the road….
Well, you were ment to either look or not, 😛
Universe decided right?
So if u didnt look, it was decided, with a decided reaction
And if u did look, its the same.
pretty weird actually, We think we make choices, but its all decided.
Id rather stick with my first post, I only life to die, and my only choice is How.
grammer fail,
I only live to die,
sorry for double post.
I wonder what would happen if we were to develop a mathematical simulation of the events of the universe, from start to end. Would we end up just creating our universe again? (matrix idea ftw!)
SplitCoffee
I doubt our universe is mathematicaly explainable.
Even though, if its all decided, it would take a whole lot more then maths to explain and simulate the Why.
We dont even know when the universe started, I mean, we got the big bang theory, but something caused that.
but, What?
What was before that?
Answer that first = P
EDIT: I second the matrix Ftw, its closest to the truth imo xD
i like the post, very inspiring.
The question which this discussion comes down to is imho:
can we actually find out what life / the universe is actually about or how it works? is it possible for us to find it out and describe it?
Because… lets say i write a simulation program with a lot of AI bots, very good intelligent bots. They sure could find out, analyse and describe a lot of things going on in the simulation program but could they find out their purpose in it? Could they find out the way the whole program is written and how it works? Could they find out how they work?
Is it possible to write an AI that can actually understand itself? …
Of course its not very natural to see humans as some kind of AI bots, but if we are no AI bots, what are we? I can’t say it.
There’s no point in understanding the meaning of life if it serves us nothing… The meaning could be depressive. Very depressive.
Example: What if we learn that the Universe will end with nothing after. Would that be depressing?.
Let the time flow because idea’s flow trough time.
Is there a difference between human and a thermometer for instance?
According to Gurdjieff, there is no difference between most of humanity and a thermometer. Some individuals attain enlightenment though and can be called conscious, something different then an object.
$able: Why do we actually look for cars before crossing the road?
$able is right on. Read it again. You look for a car before crossing the road because you are a machine that has been programmed to survive. There isn’t much more here. It is never your decision to watch out for danger, to look for the cars. It never was. Animals/machines just work this way.
I wonder what would happen if we were to develop a mathematical simulation of the events of the universe, from start to end. Would we end up just creating our universe again? (matrix idea ftw!)
The question which this discussion comes down to is imho:
can we actually find out what life / the universe is actually about or how it works? is it possible for us to find it out and describe it?
For me one of the most interesting things to do in life is actually the search for an answer for these questions. Figure out EXACTLY how the universe works. Code it into an object-oriented programming language like c++ and press Compile.
“For me one of the most interesting things to do in life is actually the search for an answer for these questions. Figure out EXACTLY how the universe works. Code it into an object-oriented programming language like c++ and press Compile.”
holy shit, so even besides creating the most awesome game atm,
you’re a god aswell???
awesome, make me your coffee!
*makes a coffee and spills it on TLD*
Oops.
“Figure out EXACTLY how the universe works.”
So can you basically sum this up to saying that asking “why” is useless?
@TLD
Actually, before Big Bang, time didn’t exist. Hence no, nothing caused it.
It was the first thing to ever happen, ever. Which makes me want to say, I’m very clever.
Lol, sorry about that. I had to make it rhyme xD
But no, really… The thing about the universe and even time itself is… I’m awesome. 😐
I mean think about it :O
Look at my awesome name of awesomeness
Now suck my finger. Good, thank you.
No, seriously. People always come with an argument about what caused, and what came before the Big Bang. The answer is simply nothing. The universe just started at the first frame like a flash movie (not an interactive one) with 3d glasses. Or if we forward the time about 50 years, virtual reality made possible by nanobots being in your brain, blocking some signals and activating others, creating a whole matrixy feel for you (Think interactive porn).
That is all (*sits in lotus position*)
Hard determinism?
Yea, there are a few assumptions being used, but it has some merit.
Namely that all the subatomic particles must behave 100% deterministically… Which might or might not be the case.
But yea, I like the theory too.
“what is being done, and
particularly what
has already been done
in one way, cannot be, and could not have
been, done in another way.‘
”
Michal, this might bring some memories of an older post you’ve made named “It’s a joke”. ( http://mm.soldat.pl/?p=109 )
Here’s a very similar line :
“SonOfBeer :
******
When we make a choice, the person that we are could not have made another choice, cuz :
The choice’s been made by who we are, in a certain place in time IN WHICH we COULDN’T have been with another mindset that would have chosen differently.
*****
”
So in the end, we are innocent to what we ARE, but not to what we DO. And even if what we DO can change what we ARE, (**it is still what we ARE that determines what we will DO**).
”
Sweet indeed
When writing that post I was about 75% for determinism.
Nowadays I’m 98%, hence this post.
Everything is at it should be. No other way.
I’m a year late. Go figures. Well, I find this interesting. I update a personal journal almost every night and have come across some interesting things over the last year of recording the “raw material” of my mind (my purely honest thoughts). Of course, I think all of my “discoveries” are just redundant for they have all been “discovered” before, over the countless generations of mankind.
I suppose I need to get back into studying human psychology. But I know it’ll be a wash anyway. It’s all too anti-septic for me.